

Debian bug report logs - #968 , boring messages

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Subject: Bug#968: kermit should only ask once about the /etc/skel files
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From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: Debian bugs submission address <debian-bugs@pixar.com>

Package: kermit
Version: 190-2

The kermit package asks
 Do you wish to install init files in /etc/skel at this time?
 Please answer with "y", "n", or "q":  n
even if you've already answered this question with `n' during a
previous installation.

Ian.

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From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#968: Acknowledgement (was: kermit should only ask once 
about the /etc/skel files)
In-Reply-To: <m0sJUPR-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sJUPR-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the problem report you have sent regarding Debian 
GNU/Linux.
This is an automatically generated reply, to let you know your message 
has
been received.  It is being forwarded to the developers' mailing list 
for
their attention; they will reply in due course.

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Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
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Ian Jackson
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From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com (Bill Mitchell)
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<m0sJUPR-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Bug#968: marked as done (was: kermit should only ask once about 
the /etc/skel files)

Your message dated Thu, 8 Jun 95 07:52:07 PDT
with message-id <9506081452.AA20068@bb29c.mdd.comm.mot.com>
and subject line Bug#968: kermit should only ask once about the 
/etc/skel files
has caused the attached bug report to be marked as done.

It is your now responsibility to ensure that the bug report is dealt
with.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what I'm
talking about this indicates a serious mail system misconfiguration
somewhere.  Please contact me immediately.)

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 00:21 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: Debian bugs submission address <debian-bugs@pixar.com>
Subject: kermit should only ask once about the /etc/skel files

Package: kermit
Version: 190-2

The kermit package asks
 Do you wish to install init files in /etc/skel at this time?
 Please answer with "y", "n", or "q":  n
even if you've already answered this question with `n' during a
previous installation.

Ian.

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Message sent:


From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#968 acknowledged by developer (was: kermit should only ask 
once about the /etc/skel files)
References: <9506081452.AA20068@bb29c.mdd.comm.mot.com> 
<m0sJUPR-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: <m0sJUPR-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

This is an automatic notification regarding your bug report.

Responsibility for it has been taken by one of the developers, namely
mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com (Bill Mitchell).

You should be hearing from them with a substantive response shortly, if
you have not already done so.  If not, please contact them directly,
or email debian-bugs@pixar.com or myself.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

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Subject: Bug#968: kermit should only ask once about the /etc/skel files
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Date: Sat, 10 Jun 95 14:31 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: debian-bugs@pixar.com

Bill Mitchell writes:
> > The kermit package asks
> >  Do you wish to install init files in /etc/skel at this time?
> >  Please answer with "y", "n", or "q":  n
> > even if you've already answered this question with `n' during a
> > previous installation.
>
> I'm closing this.  I consider it a non-bug.
>
> I don't think that not wishing to install those files during 
installation
> in May implies that the files are not wished to be installed during an
> upgrade in December.  It's a long, long time from May to December.

Why do you assume that the interval will be May to December ?  Are
you assuming that new versions of the kermit package will not come out
more frequently than that ?

Remember that the user will get asked this *every* time they upgrade.
For some users this may only be twice a year, but for others it will
be much for frequently.

We want to make upgrading as painless as possible - much of our effort
has been concentrated in making it as easy as possible to upgrade to
the latest version as soon as it comes out.

If people get the impression that they will have to answer all sorts
of stupid questions again every time they upgrade they won't do so.

Ian M., do you have a position on this question ?

Ian.

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Message sent:


From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#968: Info received (was Bug#968: kermit should only ask 
once about the /etc/skel files)
In-Reply-To: <m0sKQdC-0000XfZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sKQdC-0000XfZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, 
ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#968" or "Re: Bug#968" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

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Subject: Bug#968: kermit should only ask once about the /etc/skel files
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Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 18:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Mitchell <mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com>
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On Sat, 10 Jun 1995, Ian Jackson wrote:

> Bill Mitchell writes:
> > > The kermit package asks
> > >  Do you wish to install init files in /etc/skel at this time?
> > >  Please answer with "y", "n", or "q":  n
> > > even if you've already answered this question with `n' during a
> > > previous installation.
> >
> > I'm closing this.  I consider it a non-bug.
> > I don't think that not wishing to install those files during 
installation
> > in May implies that the files are not wished to be installed during 
an
> > upgrade in December.  It's a long, long time from May to December.
>
> Why do you assume that the interval will be May to December ?  Are

Actually, I wasn't assuming that.  That line from September Song
happened to pop into my head as I was responding, and I couldn't
resist the temptation to use it.

> you assuming that new versions of the kermit package will not come out
> more frequently than that ?

Upgrades due to changes in the upstream kermit distribution probably
won't.  Debian upgrades might appear more frequently, as today's
bugfix upgrade for a bug I introduced in the last upgrade attests.

Actually, the scenario I had in mind was re-installation with the
purpose of installing the /etc/skel files, after an initial package
installation in which the user chose not to install them.

> Remember that the user will get asked this *every* time they upgrade.
>[...]
> If people get the impression that they will have to answer all sorts
> of stupid questions again every time they upgrade they won't do so.

It's only one question, if they choose to answer it "n".  The postinst
takes a negative response to the question about installing the
/etc/skel files as an indication that all the other questions
about options in those files are unnecessary, and doesn't ask them.

> Ian M., do you have a position on this question ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message sent:


From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: Bill Mitchell <mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com>
Subject: Bug#968: Info received (was Bug#968: kermit should only ask 
once about the /etc/skel files)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950610182231.21624E-100000@bb29c>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950610182231.21624E-100000@bb29c>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, 
ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#968" or "Re: Bug#968" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:


Subject: Bug#968: kermit should only ask once about the /etc/skel files
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From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: debian-bugs@pixar.com
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References: <m0sKQdC-0000XfZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
        <Pine.SUN.3.91.950610182231.21624E-100000@bb29c>

Bill Mitchell writes:
> On Sat, 10 Jun 1995, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > you assuming that new versions of the kermit package will not come 
out
> > more frequently than that ?
>
> Upgrades due to changes in the upstream kermit distribution probably
> won't.  Debian upgrades might appear more frequently, as today's
> bugfix upgrade for a bug I introduced in the last upgrade attests.

Or for ELF conversion or package dependency changes or .deb file
format change or whatever.

> Actually, the scenario I had in mind was re-installation with the
> purpose of installing the /etc/skel files, after an initial package
> installation in which the user chose not to install them.

The best universal way to get a package `reconfigured' is:
 dpkg --remove --purge foo
 dpkg --install foo-latest-version.deb

You should be able to write your postinst script so that this will
DTRT.

Surely the whole point of having an upgradeable system is that you
_don't_ have to reconfigure everything when you upgrade it ?!

> > Remember that the user will get asked this *every* time they 
upgrade.
> >[...]
> > If people get the impression that they will have to answer all sorts
> > of stupid questions again every time they upgrade they won't do so.
>
> It's only one question, [...]

There are well over a hundred Debian packages at the moment; in a few
months there'll probably be over 250.  If one in five asks a single
question at each reinstall that's 50 questions to be answered during a
full system upgrade from the quarterly CDROM or whatever.

I don't think that's a good idea.

Ian.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message sent:


From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#968: Info received (was Bug#968: kermit should only ask 
once about the /etc/skel files)
In-Reply-To: <m0sKyA3-0000YJZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sKyA3-0000YJZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, 
ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#968" or "Re: Bug#968" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:


Subject: Bug#968: kermit should only ask once about the /etc/skel files
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 95 14:38:24 PDT
From: mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com (Bill Mitchell)
Message-Id: <9506122138.AA22390@bb29c.mdd.comm.mot.com>
To: debian-bugs@pixar.com, iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk

iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson) wrote, regarding questions re config
file changes during upgrade.

> > [...]
> Or for ELF conversion or package dependency changes or .deb file
> format change or whatever. [...]
> The best universal way to get a package `reconfigured' is:
>  dpkg --remove --purge foo
>  dpkg --install foo-latest-version.deb
> You should be able to write your postinst script so that this will
> DTRT. [...]
> There are well over a hundred Debian packages at the moment; in a few
> months there'll probably be over 250.  If one in five asks a single
> question at each reinstall that's 50 questions to be answered during a
> full system upgrade from the quarterly CDROM or whatever.

A couple of thoughts on this general topic have come out of this
discussion for me.

Regarding "dpkg --various_options", I think we're on the wrong track if
we expect Joe C. User (C. for Casual) to deal with this, and do it
without error.  Joe will use the dselect interface, and that interface
needs to address a very high percentage of his package administration
needs.  For packages with nontrivial install-time configuration
interaction, I think Joe has a legitimate need to be able to do
a post-install package reconfiguration.

Given that dselect is Joe's package administration interface, I think
that Joe needs to be able to initiate reconfiguration of an installed
package via dselect.  This would be a new dselect requirement, I think.
It'd be nice if dselect could indicate to Joe somehow whether or
not the package supported post-install reconfiguration (dselect
would need some help from the package to do this -- some convention
to be established for package maintainers to indicate that this
is supported).  For packages supporting post-install reconfiguration,
dselect might call the postinst with a "--reconfigure" argument,
or somesuch.

Regarding the postinst being able to DTRT during upgrades while
minimizing user interaction.  Perhaps the kermit postinst, and
other postinsts, need to be smarter about this.

Thinking back on it -- the kermit postinst added an install-time
/etc/skel file configuration option or two at one point (file
transfer type and filename translation mode, as I recall).
I think that ehancement coincided with a change in upstream version
number, and I'm not sure whether the /etc/skel files from the
previous version would have been compatable with the files from
the new version (I'm guessinnng that they would have been, but
that's not a given).

The ideal situation would be for the postinst to only ask necessary
questions.  To do that it'd need to know what package version (if any)
is being replaced, and what vintage (if any) install-time-configurable
files are installed (the installed files might predate the installed
package).  I'll think about smartening up the kermit postinst, but
it occurs to me that this would be easier all around if there was
a simple (and standard) method for the postinst script to know if
it was upgrading a package and, if so, what package vintage.  How
about having dpkg place this info in environment variables before
invoking postinstall and/or postrm scripts?  INSTALLED_VERSION and
INSTALLED_REVISION, or somesuch?

> There are well over a hundred Debian packages at the moment; in a few
> months there'll probably be over 250.  If one in five asks a single
> question at each reinstall that's 50 questions to be answered during a
> full system upgrade from the quarterly CDROM or whatever.

Hopefully, a full system upgrade will only reinstall currently-installed
packages for which the VERSION and PACKAGE_REVISION fields indicate that
an upgrade is indicated, not every installed package on the system.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message sent:


From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: mitchell@mdd.comm.mot.com (Bill Mitchell)
Subject: Bug#968: Info received (was Bug#968: kermit should only ask 
once about the /etc/skel files)
In-Reply-To: <9506122138.AA22390@bb29c.mdd.comm.mot.com>
References: <9506122138.AA22390@bb29c.mdd.comm.mot.com>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, 
ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#968" or "Re: Bug#968" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:


Subject: Bug#968: kermit should only ask once about the /etc/skel files
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 18:58 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: debian-bugs@pixar.com
In-Reply-To: <9506122138.AA22390@bb29c.mdd.comm.mot.com>
References: <9506122138.AA22390@bb29c.mdd.comm.mot.com>

Bill Mitchell writes:
> Regarding "dpkg --various_options", I think we're on the wrong track 
if
> we expect Joe C. User (C. for Casual) to deal with this, and do it
> without error.  Joe will use the dselect interface, and that interface
> needs to address a very high percentage of his package administration
> needs.  For packages with nontrivial install-time configuration
> interaction, I think Joe has a legitimate need to be able to do
> a post-install package reconfiguration.

I agree.

> Given that dselect is Joe's package administration interface, I think
> that Joe needs to be able to initiate reconfiguration of an installed
> package via dselect.  This would be a new dselect requirement, I 
think.
> It'd be nice if dselect could indicate to Joe somehow whether or
> not the package supported post-install reconfiguration (dselect
> would need some help from the package to do this -- some convention
> to be established for package maintainers to indicate that this
> is supported).  For packages supporting post-install reconfiguration,
> dselect might call the postinst with a "--reconfigure" argument,
> or somesuch.

This would be one way of doing it, yes.  (Though `reconfigure' rather
than `configure' would be a better bet - none of the other maintainer
script options start with hyphens.)

Another way (that would make it obvious to dselect/dpkg whether a
package could be reconfigured) would be to use a separate maintainer
script.

Discussion on this topic is welcome, but I can't promise to have time
to join in, so I'd like you all to argue amongst yourselves :-).

> Regarding the postinst being able to DTRT during upgrades while
> minimizing user interaction.  Perhaps the kermit postinst, and
> other postinsts, need to be smarter about this.

Yes, that was what I would be suggesting.

> The ideal situation would be for the postinst to only ask necessary
> questions.  To do that it'd need to know what package version (if any)
> is being replaced, and what vintage (if any) install-time-configurable
> files are installed (the installed files might predate the installed
> package).  I'll think about smartening up the kermit postinst, but
> it occurs to me that this would be easier all around if there was
> a simple (and standard) method for the postinst script to know if
> it was upgrading a package and, if so, what package vintage.  How
> about having dpkg place this info in environment variables before
> invoking postinstall and/or postrm scripts?  INSTALLED_VERSION and
> INSTALLED_REVISION, or somesuch?

This is difficult, because by the time the postinst is running only
one version of the package is installed, and it's not easy to define
what the `old version' of the package (if any) is.

How about `old version = last version for which the postinst script
was *started* (or conffiles update completed), even if it didn't
complete' ?

I could pass the version number as an argument to the postinst script.

> Hopefully, a full system upgrade will only reinstall 
currently-installed
> packages for which the VERSION and PACKAGE_REVISION fields indicate 
that
> an upgrade is indicated, not every installed package on the system.

Your hope shall be fulfilled.

Ian.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message sent:


From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#968: Info received (was Bug#968: kermit should only ask 
once about the /etc/skel files)
In-Reply-To: <m0sLaEI-0000XqZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sLaEI-0000XqZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, 
ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#968" or "Re: Bug#968" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Jackson / iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk , with the debian-bugs tracking
mechanism
This page last modified 06:43:02 GMT Wed 21 Jun