Debian bug report logs - #705, boring messages

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Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
Reply-To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson), debian-bugs@pixar.com
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Date: Sun, 2 Apr 95 03:25 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: Debian bugs submission address <debian-bugs@pixar.com>

Package: syslogd
Version: 1.2-9

When the system runlevel changes, syslogd is stopped and restarted.
This is because it has both K and S scripts in the rc[2345].d
directories.

This is a bad thing, because it interrupts the continuity of logging.
syslogd should IMO only install K scripts in runlevels 0,1 and 6, and
S scripts in 2,3,4,5.

Ian.

PS: I'm not sure about the wisdom in general of having the default
action be to stop and restart a daemon when changing between two
runlevels in both of which it should be active.  Ian M. ?

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#705: Acknowledgement (was: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0rvFLp-0000YUZ.ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu>
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Thank you for the problem report you have sent regarding Debian GNU/Linux.
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Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
Reply-To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock), debian-bugs@pixar.com
Resent-To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Resent-From: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 95 10:51 EST
From: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
To: debian-bugs@Pixar.com
In-Reply-To: <m0rvFLp-0000YUZ.ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu> (iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk)

   Date: Sun, 2 Apr 95 03:25 BST
   From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)

   PS: I'm not sure about the wisdom in general of having the default
   action be to stop and restart a daemon when changing between two
   runlevels in both of which it should be active.  Ian M. ?

Yes, I agree.  I have changed /etc/init.d/rc so that it will *only*
kill a service (i.e., execute its K script) if there is no S script
in the runlevel for that service.  This will end the stopped-and-
restarted problem, as if the daemon is to be restarted anyway, it
should never be killed.

Of course, this makes it even more important that daemons be started
with start-stop-daemon.  If this program is not used to do this, the
result may be multiple copies of a daemon running.

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sHCWW-00001xC@debra.debian.org>
References: <m0sHCWW-00001xC@debra.debian.org>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 95 02:15 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock), debian-bugs@pixar.com

Ian Murdock writes ("Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change"):
>    Date: Sun, 2 Apr 95 03:25 BST
>    From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
>
>    PS: I'm not sure about the wisdom in general of having the default
>    action be to stop and restart a daemon when changing between two
>    runlevels in both of which it should be active.  Ian M. ?
>
> Yes, I agree.  I have changed /etc/init.d/rc so that it will *only*
> kill a service (i.e., execute its K script) if there is no S script
> in the runlevel for that service.  This will end the stopped-and-
> restarted problem, as if the daemon is to be restarted anyway, it
> should never be killed.

No, please !  Don't do this !

What should be changed is the default action of update-rc.d.  I shall
release a modified version which does not write the K links ASAP.

The alternative makes it impossible to have a program restarted if
this is desired (by the sysadmin or the package maintainer).

Programs whose maintainers are strongly of the opinion that they
shouldn't be restarted across runlevel changes should have code in the
postinst to:
 - check to see whether we're upgrading (argument 1 is `upgrade')
 - check to see whether the old version number is an oldish one (say,
   one that was released before the updated dpkg release which will
   be available tomorrow).
 - check to see whether the state in /etc/rc?.d/ is that which
   the old update-rc.d would have created by default.
If all of these things are true it should delete all K links for the
package in the default runlevels.  If any of them aren't it should
probably leave things as they are for the sysadmin to do something
about if they want to, but for some daemons (syslogd, for example)
it will probably be better to fix things even if the user has changed
things slightly.

The old version number check (the old version number is supplied as
the second argument to the postinst script if the first argument is
`upgrade') is important so that the `fix bug under sysadmin's feet'
feature doesn't persist forever.

> OF course, this makes it even more important that daemons be started
> with start-stop-daemon.  If this program is not used to do this, the
> result may be multiple copies of a daemon running.

Indeed.

Ian.

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sHLKk-0000XBZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sHLKk-0000XBZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
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Message-Id: <m0sHRou-0000YIZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 95 09:11 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock), debian-bugs@pixar.com

I proposed:
> Programs whose maintainers are strongly of the opinion that they
> shouldn't be restarted across runlevel changes should have code in the
> postinst to:
>  - check to see whether we're upgrading (argument 1 is `upgrade')
>  - check to see whether the old version number is an oldish one (say,
>    one that was released before the updated dpkg release which will
>    be available tomorrow).
>  - check to see whether the state in /etc/rc?.d/ is that which
>    the old update-rc.d would have created by default.
> If all of these things are true it should delete all K links for the
> package in the default runlevels.  If any of them aren't it should
> probably leave things as they are for the sysadmin to do something
> about if they want to, but for some daemons (syslogd, for example)
> it will probably be better to fix things even if the user has changed
> things slightly.
>
> The old version number check (the old version number is supplied as
> the second argument to the postinst script if the first argument is
> `upgrade') is important so that the `fix bug under sysadmin's feet'
> feature doesn't persist forever.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps I should put support for fixing
this situation into update-rc.d.  Namely, that if you invoke it with
`defaults', and the links already exist, haven't been changed by the
user, and have dates before some particular point (6 months from now,
perhaps ?), it will remove the K links from the runlevels where there
are also S links.

I'd welcome any helpful comments, suggestions, &c - but quickly !

Ian.

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sHRou-0000YIZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sHRou-0000YIZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 95 08:23 EST
From: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
To: debian-bugs@pixar.com
In-Reply-To: <m0sHLKk-0000XBZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk> (iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk)

   Date: Fri, 2 Jun 95 02:15 BST
   From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)

   Ian Murdock writes ("Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change"):
   >    Date: Sun, 2 Apr 95 03:25 BST
   >    From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
   >
   >    PS: I'm not sure about the wisdom in general of having the default
   >    action be to stop and restart a daemon when changing between two
   >    runlevels in both of which it should be active.  Ian M. ?
   >
   > Yes, I agree.  I have changed /etc/init.d/rc so that it will *only*
   > kill a service (i.e., execute its K script) if there is no S script
   > in the runlevel for that service.  This will end the stopped-and-
   > restarted problem, as if the daemon is to be restarted anyway, it
   > should never be killed.

   No, please !  Don't do this !

Well, FWIW, this is how it was configured in the original package
(which, I assume, means this is how it actually works under System
V).  I changed it originally because I was getting multiple copies
of daemons running, but start-stop-daemon has fixed that particular
problem.  At the time I changed it, however, start-stop-daemon was
not yet available.

In light of this, do you still disagree that this is the best method
of solving the problem?  I can change it back, but I think it would
be best to stay as close to System V as possible in this area, if we
are claiming to have a "System V" Init.

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sHWhg-00001xC@debra.debian.org>
References: <m0sHWhg-00001xC@debra.debian.org>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 95 19:32 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock), debian-bugs@pixar.com

Ian Murdock writes ("Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change"):
> [...]
>
> Well, FWIW, this [not running the K script if there is an S script]
> is how it was configured in the original package
> (which, I assume, means this is how it actually works under System
> V).  I changed it originally because I was getting multiple copies
> of daemons running, but start-stop-daemon has fixed that particular
> problem.  At the time I changed it, however, start-stop-daemon was
> not yet available.
>
> In light of this, do you still disagree that this is the best method
> of solving the problem?  I can change it back, but I think it would
> be best to stay as close to System V as possible in this area, if we
> are claiming to have a "System V" Init.

I agree that it would be nice to be more like System V, but it's
probably not the only consideration.  The first thing we should do is
probably to find a real SVR4 system (rather than a Linux person's
imitation of one) and see what it does.

I'd be disappointed if it behaves as you describe.  After all, what's
the point of being able to have both a K and an S script in the same
directory if the presence of the K script is irrelevant ?

It seems to me that the behaviour that we had before (ie, we run each
script if it's present, independantly of whether the other is) is more
flexible and therefore more useful, and also more logical.

I'd therefore be inclined to say that if System V really does it the
other way then we should depart from that practice, and document it
(of course).  But the precedent would make my argument much weaker.

Ian.

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sHbWA-0000YDZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sHbWA-0000YDZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
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Date: Sat, 3 Jun 95 21:18 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock), debian-bugs@pixar.com
In-Reply-To: <7189364@toto.iv>

I wrote:
> I agree that it would be nice to be more like System V, but it's
> probably not the only consideration.  The first thing we should do is
> probably to find a real SVR4 system (rather than a Linux person's
> imitation of one) and see what it does.

Well, the closest thing to an SVR4 system that I can get at is a
Solaris 2 machine.  It *doesn't* look for the existence of S files
when it's running the K ones.  Ie, it behaves the way I think it ought
to.

I think this removes the `System V do it this way' argument, and I
don't think there ever was a good technical argument.  I think this
supports my opinion we should keep our init behaving the way it is and
have the packages not install K files when they don't mean it.

Ian.

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sHzeC-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sHzeC-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
Reply-To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock), debian-bugs@pixar.com
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Resent-From: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 14:01 EST
From: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
To: debian-bugs@pixar.com
In-Reply-To: <m0sHzeC-0000YKZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk> (iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk)

   Date: Sat, 3 Jun 95 21:18 BST
   From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)

   Well, the closest thing to an SVR4 system that I can get at is a
   Solaris 2 machine.  It *doesn't* look for the existence of S files
   when it's running the K ones.  Ie, it behaves the way I think it
   ought to.

   I think this removes the `System V do it this way' argument, and I
   don't think there ever was a good technical argument.  I think this
   supports my opinion we should keep our init behaving the way it is
   and have the packages not install K files when they don't mean it.

Agreed.  I'll leave like it was in Release 5.

I assume the updated update-rc.d will be in the next dpkg?

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sIhPC-00002nC@debra.debian.org>
References: <m0sIhPC-00002nC@debra.debian.org>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent to debian-devel@pixar.com:

Subject: Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 95 18:57 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: debian-bugs@pixar.com

Ian Murdock writes ("Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change"):
>    Date: Sat, 3 Jun 95 21:18 BST
>    From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
>
>    [...] we should keep our init behaving the way it is
>    and have the packages not install K files when they don't mean it.
>
> Agreed.  I'll leave like it was in Release 5.
>
> I assume the updated update-rc.d will be in the next dpkg?

My current dpkg source tree is suffering from `building site
syndrome', so I'm building a revised version.

Ian.

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#705: Info received (was Bug#705: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
In-Reply-To: <m0sJ2sk-0000XfZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>
References: <m0sJ2sk-0000XfZ@chiark.al.cl.cam.ac.uk>

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developers to
accompany the original report.

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please do the same thing again: send it to debian-bugs@pixar.com, ensuring
that the Subject line starts with "Bug#705" or "Re: Bug#705" so that
we can identify it as relating to the same problem.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock)
In-Reply-To: <m0sP1B5-0001cjC@debian.org>
References: <m0sP1B5-0001cjC@debian.org> <m0rvFLp-0000YUZ.ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Subject: Bug#705: marked as done (was: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)

Your message dated Fri, 23 Jun 95 00:21 EST
with message-id <m0sP1B5-0001cjC@debian.org>
and subject line Bug#705:
has caused the attached bug report to be marked as done.

It is your now responsibility to ensure that the bug report is dealt
with.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what I'm
talking about this indicates a serious mail system misconfiguration
somewhere.  Please contact me immediately.)

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

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Date: Sun, 2 Apr 95 03:25 BST
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: Debian bugs submission address <debian-bugs@pixar.com>
Subject: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change

Package: syslogd
Version: 1.2-9

When the system runlevel changes, syslogd is stopped and restarted.
This is because it has both K and S scripts in the rc[2345].d
directories.

This is a bad thing, because it interrupts the continuity of logging.
syslogd should IMO only install K scripts in runlevels 0,1 and 6, and
S scripts in 2,3,4,5.

Ian.

PS: I'm not sure about the wisdom in general of having the default
action be to stop and restart a daemon when changing between two
runlevels in both of which it should be active.  Ian M. ?

Message sent:

From: iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: Bug#705 acknowledged by developer (was: syslogd is restarted on runlevel change)
References: <m0sP1B5-0001cjC@debian.org> <m0rvFLp-0000YUZ.ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu>
In-Reply-To: <m0rvFLp-0000YUZ.ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu>

This is an automatic notification regarding your bug report.

Responsibility for it has been taken by one of the developers, namely
imurdock@debian.org (Ian Murdock).

You should be hearing from them with a substantive response shortly, if
you have not already done so.  If not, please contact them directly,
or email debian-bugs@pixar.com or myself.

Ian Jackson
(maintainer, debian-bugs)

Ian Jackson / iwj10@thor.cam.ac.uk, with the debian-bugs tracking mechanism

This page last modified 07:13:02 GMT Fri 23 Jun